User talk:Mustafaa/Archive 2

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Wishing well[edit]

Wow. I see long lists of posts where people talk to you and you often don't respondto them here (though perhaps elsewhere). It seems that your knowledge has earned you the position of a wishing well. :P You can grant any wish, right? And it's not considered sorcery? :P Let's see, what should I wish for... Can you spit out a complete and perfect grammar+lexicon of every language in known existence, living and dead, in fully cross-referenced cross-hyperlinked HTML format by tomorrow afternoon? :)  ::tosses a quarter into the well:: - Gilgamesh 11:36, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hmm... Maybe I should archive this page! ;) - Mustafaa 17:44, 15 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Danny's contest[edit]

Actually, articles did not have to be explicitly marked as stubs, so your entry does qualify. See the rules section:

We are looking specifically for stubs that were transformed into full-fledged articles, not new articles. That is, the article should exist as a stub at the opening of this contest (even though it does not necessarily have to include a stub template).

David Remahl 00:18, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! - Mustafaa 00:23, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Old Nubian[edit]

Very cool to have that picture at Old Nubian language! I have uploaded a clearer version of the image, I hope you agree it's better this way. Incidentally, you should add a copyright tag to the image page. Mark Dingemanse (talk) 22:57, 16 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Come join the feast at Finno-Ugric languages. It has just started. Mark Dingemanse (talk) 21:02, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Could you guys please also look at the Uralic languages page, I think what Antifinnougric inserted there is not only POV, but also wrong. But I'm no linguist (although a Hungarian). Thanks, Nyenyec 17:26, 18 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sabra and Shatila massacre, Munich massacre[edit]

As you may be aware, there have been various edit wars at Sabra and Shatila massacre and Munich massacre. A neutral third party User:Quadell has tried to come up with a compromise version for each of these articles, but he has had little success in convincing the pro-Palestinian side that his versions are truly NPOV. As someone who is pro-Palestinian (though NPOV in editing) you might have more credibility than him, and possibly more knowledge about the topics in question as well. Would you be willing to work with him in producing compromise NPOV articles? Jayjg 21:51, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

It's not as bad as all that; in each case, there's an original version, and then HistoryBuffEr's "NPOV" version. What Quadell is trying to do is work from both versions to produce a third version acceptable to all sides. I'm sure he'd love some help... Jayjg 23:20, 17 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Not to bug you too much, but it might help calm things down, and he's proabanly feeling kind of discouraged right now... Jayjg 22:46, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Saluki request[edit]

Hello Mustafaa. I have a question for you, since you seem to be knowlegable about the Noble Koran. The article Saluki contains a paragraph on Salukis in Arabia and North Africa. It claims that the Koran allows only this breed of dog to be kept and bred. Could you check to see if this is accurate? Thanks, Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 21:00, Nov 18, 2004 (UTC)

Jerusalem page[edit]


I agree that the article is unbalanced at the end. There should be a Christian section and the Jewish section should be summarized, and most of that current material moved to its own page. However -- given that I'm putting off looking for a job by engaging in Wikipedism, I'm not sure that I should saddle myself with yet another controversy. At the moment. Zora 20:37, 19 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Whistled languages and more[edit]

Hi Mustafaa, I'm curious as to which whistled languages are attested in Africa (Re: your addition to African languages). Furthermore, I'm planning to expand the African languages article significantly - see my work in progress at User:Mark Dingemanse/draft3. If you feel like it, don't hesitate to drop in to correct, improve, add, or suggest things.

Maybe you could cast a quick glance at Image:African_trade_languages.png — I made it in a hurry, mainly from memory, and I might have forgotten some important languages of wider communication. Furthermore, Songhay is back on the African language families series.

Thus far the progress report of the African languages & linguistics department :). mark 02:01, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Finno-Ugric troubles[edit]

I am going to leave the building. The guy is really getting on my nerves. If you want to keep an eye on things there, please do - the situation surely needs attention. mark 18:50, 20 Nov 2004 (UTC)

The time for debate is over, I think; the linguistic community of Wikipedia has clearly reached a consensus. The time for editing, though, is not... - Mustafaa 01:11, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Have a look at User talk:Antifinnugor#Marcantonio. Especially the last paragraph of what he writes is telling. A typical crackpot science pattern of thinking. I've tried very hard, but I simply can't deal with him. I guess the best way to deal with it is to neglect him till he (hopefully) loses interest, and then cleaning up after him. Well well. My first encounter with the dark side of Wikipedia. In any case it has been instructive. mark 01:35, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)
dingemanse, you show clearly, how defamatory you are, and how little you know otherwise about linguistic. have nice hatred in your further time. Antifinnugor 20:45, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
I've tried very hard, that's what I wrote. And I was being serious. I furthermore do not want to hide that I find it extremely difficult to value your contributions to Wikipedia so far. In fact, I have the feeling that your attitude has caused many users to waste their time and energy debating over basic linguistic principles you have not yet mastered. However, I have repeatedly made clear that I do not hate you; and in fact, I have tried to show you ways to work more cooperative, both by explaining them and by trying to set a good example. And now I'm off. I doubt that my decision to stay out of your way has anything to do with my competence in linguistics. mark 21:16, 21 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Maybe it does: Mark's competence in linguistics is far higher than AFU's, and I think that is precisely why he finds arguing with AFU frustrating. - Mustafaa 15:15, 22 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Sorry for spamming your talk page. I just want to say thank you for cleaning up after me at Gbe languages. Seeing how you solve my EAL-related problems is very instructive. Also, I really like your additions to the African languages draft. mark 21:22, 21 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I'm going to keep a close eye on this page, and if I seem much more POV edits by this user I'm filing an RFC. Just thought you might like to know. - Ta bu shi da yu 06:44, 22 Nov 2004 (UTC)


I could use some help on some text I temporarily removed on Talk:Martyr. Please see my comments. --Viriditas

Wow, great job! I hope you don't mind if I ask for your help in the future. --Viriditas 03:46, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
No problem! I like the name, btw - I assume it's from KSR's Mars trilogy? - Mustafaa 03:48, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Yes, it is. I'm also a fan of the Gregorian chant (O Nobilissima Viriditas) by Hildegard von Bingen. --Viriditas 04:03, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)


-de- and -te- (and -tä and -ta and -tta and ...) are chosen depending on what follows after. This holds true for yksi (one), kaksi (two), viisi (five), and kuusi (six), at least. But it's too complicated, I think, to give that much information in the table. ...besides, I think only linguists understand the determining rules. :-) /Tuomas 10:26, 23 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for the warm welcome[edit]

Thank you, Mustafaa, for your welcome to the Wikipedia. Syriac and other Semitic languages are my thing, but I love languages too. Is there anything interesting that could do with some work? Gareth Hughes 23:53, 24 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Alberuni deleting all criticism of Muhammad[edit]

Mustafaa, you KNOW how hard I've been trying to steer a middle path between bigots like Pename and Iothario, and bigots like Alberuni. Now Alberuni has descended upon the Muhammad article and wiped out the two sections entitled "Criticism", on the grounds that any criticism of Muhammad is disrespectful and Islamophobic. If I revert, he'll just wipe them out again -- he's happy to play revert war. I don't know what to do. Do you have any ideas? I'm disheartened. If people like Alberuni run amok, there's no point in doing ANY work on Wikipedia. Zora 01:50, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

From User talk:Zora: I'll see if I can manage to defuse this a bit. Unfortunately, Alberuni's fuse is extremely short - and it doesn't help that a fair bit of his Wikipedia experience has been with people as trigger-happy and source-short as himself, with the 100% opposite POV. - Mustafaa 02:19, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)"
I don't appreciate the arrogant insulting comments from either one of you. I am not a bigot nor am I "source-short" and I resent your casual personal attacks and accusations. --Alberuni 03:14, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)
Look, Alberuni, I sympathise with your intentions, and I've had to fight ignorant pro-Zionist or anti-Muslim editors before. But the fact is that you simply don't engage your opponents most of the time, and add comments guaranteed to fan edit wars. I can understand you getting into edit wars with bigots like "Pename" or some others that I won't name just yet, but it is entirely possible to calmly and rationally discuss edits with people like Jayjg or Zora, even when their POV is diametrically opposed to yours or mine, and it is your own highly emotional editing methods that seem to be the main cause of those edit wars' continuation. - Mustafaa 03:20, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

He is not a big fish...[edit]

... that's correct :-) I never put in the tones 'cause I'm lazy! (And not Chinese either!) - Ta bu shi da yu 02:16, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Pename RFC[edit]

Would you be willing to certify the RFC? Please, I'm not asking to pressure you. I won't be upset if you don't :) - Ta bu shi da yu 03:23, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You understate the case, if anything. Your patience in the face of this guy is remarkable. - Mustafaa 03:32, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

I appreciate your advice[edit]

I agree with everything you said EXCEPT that it is not possible to calmly and rationally discuss matters with Jayjg, Viriditas, Lance6Wins, Humus sapiens, and a good number of other highly biased partisans. I have tried to be very reasonable with them but they just argue ad nauseum to bully their POV into Wikipedia. Some of them are simple-minded and sincerely believe theoir POV is the objective truth and some are dishonest propagandists who believe that their POV should be promoted as objective truth. I admit that I don't have as much patience with them as you do - but I don't think it matters in the end. --Alberuni 03:50, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)[edit]

I submitted an arbitration on this guy here. Let's see what happens.

OneGuy 09:35, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hello Mustafaa[edit]

Thank you for your note. I have been on Wikipedia for a few weeks now, but I have not made any edits until today. I think I understand how it is done now. I answered your question on my page. Is that the right place? Also, I found a page that I think is very POV and poorly written, and it would be a lot of work to fix it, and I am not an expert in the topic. Are there experts here who can fix these things? IbnRushd 17:44, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

You could try asking at Wikipedia:Reference desk or put the page up on Wikipedia:Peer review. — David Remahl 17:50, 25 Nov 2004 (UTC)

S&S page[edit]

Mustafaa, thanks for keeping the Sabra and Shatila talk page alive. I'd pretty much given up on it, at least until the Jayjg-HistoryBuffEr arbitration is worked out, but I'm glad you're still working on improving the article. Hopefully the page editing can end up being more about content than personalities. Thanks, Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 00:24, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)


I would like to nominate you as an administrator, as I think you would make a good one. Would you accept? Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 00:51, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)

Last time someone did this I declined, in a futile bid to keep myself from becoming a Wikiholic; but by now, I don't think it will make a difference either way to the amount of time I spend here... so I would accept. Thanks! - Mustafaa 01:08, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

There's no point fighting the Wikiholism, friend. It's done in better men than you or me.
Okay, you're nominated. You'll probably want to officially accept the nomination on that page, and answer the questions posted. Be prepared: these sysop votes can get quite combattive at times, and many people face undeserved (as well as deserved) criticism. I had quite a few insults thrown my way when I was nominated, and you have been involved with some pretty controversial topics. Just a heads-up. Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 01:52, Nov 26, 2004 (UTC)
Well, this turned out to be the single worst prediction I've ever made. Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 19:46, Dec 1, 2004 (UTC)

Hi, Mustafaa, please accept Quadell's nomination here. Thanks and good luck. -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 08:15, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Hey, Mustafaa, you would be a GOOD admin. You keep calm under extreme provocation and you're always working for consensus. It is much appreciated. So go for it! Zora 09:19, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Sami language[edit]

Hi Mustafaa, You added a table of common words in the articles on the Uralic languages and the Finno-Ugric languages. Please, could you specify, which Sami language is included in the tables. It looks like North Sami, but the orthography is not correct. Maybe it is another Sami language? --Hippophaë 21:00, 26 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I replaced Sami by North Sami. --Hippophaë 09:49, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Judaism in the Quran[edit]

Greetings Mustafaa

I noticed your link to an article (you?) started about Judaism in the Quran. I would very much like to start an article on this, that focuses solely on this i.e. only the Quran, not Hadiths or other writings. With your permission, I will begin this article and attempt to expand it.--Josiah 00:32, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC)

Cognation percentages for Arabic varieties[edit]

Hello Mustafaa,

I was wondering if you have access to cognation percentages for the various Arabic varieties?

While the article on Arabic varieties explains well the various relationships, I don't feel it gives a good feel for how different the different varieties are from one another, and I myself am very unsure, and am wondering if perhaps you have specific numbers.

Mark (Node 04:13, 28 Nov 2004 (UTC))


You might be interested in Arbitration request - CheeseDreams vs. a cabal of "fundamentalists"

CheeseDreams 02:28, 30 Nov 2004 (UTC)


Could you take a look at Islamophobia. I've got to stay away from that page for a while, because the Islamphobes just caused a reaction from me that wasn't appropriate for Wikipedia.--Josiah 03:04, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)

Article Licensing[edit]

Hi, I've started the Free the Rambot Articles Project which has the goals of getting users to multi-license all of their contributions that they've made to...

  1. ...all U.S. state, county, and city articles...
  2. ...all articles...

using the Creative Commons Attribution-Share Alike (CC-by-sa) version 1.0 and 2.0 Licenses or into the public domain if they prefer. The CC-by-sa license is a true free documentation license that is similar to the GFDL (which every contribution made to Wikipedia is licensed under), but it allows other projects, such as WikiTravel, to use our articles (See the Multi-licensing Guide for more information). Since you are among the top 1000 most active Wikipedians, I was wondering if you would be willing to multi-license all of your contributions or at minimum those on the geographic articles.

Nutshell: Wikipedia articles can be shared with any other GFDL project but open/free projects using the incompatible Creative Commons Licenses (e.g. WikiTravel) can't use our stuff and we can't use theirs. It is important to us that other free projects can use our stuff. So we use their licenses too.

To allow us to track those users who muli-license their contributions, many users copy and paste the {{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}} template (or {{MultiLicensePD}} for public domain) into their user page, but there are other templates for other options at Template messages/User namespace. The following examples could also copied and pasted into your user page:

Option 1
I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions, with the exception of my user pages, as described below:


Option 2
I agree to [[Wikipedia:Multi-licensing|multi-license]] all my contributions to any [[U.S. state]], county, or city article as described below:

Or if you wanted to place your work into the public domain, you could replace {{DualLicenseWithCC-BySA-Dual}} with {{MultiLicensePD}}. If you only prefer using the GFDL, I would like to know that too. Please let me know at my talk page what you think. -- Ram-Man 18:02, Nov 30, 2004 (UTC)


Would you be able to give a justification for why you removed those dates? It seems pretty fair to me. Incidently, I know that you definitely had good reason for your edits. My suggestion is to justify the removals, talk to Pename about it, see if you can come to a compromise. Unfortunately, compromise can bring some pain, so you might (and I emphasise might) want to let minor ones slide or rephrase them, whatever.

Also, the method I use to resolve disputes that threaten to turn into revert wars, is as follows (I'll also admit that I haven't always done this, and each time I haven't I've gotten into hot water, I also based this on Wikipedia:Dispute resolution):

I make my edit with a decent edit summary, then make a note on the talk page.

  1. If it gets reverted, then:
    1. I check the talk page to find out if that person has responded. If they have:
      1. I respond to their issues
      2. Modify what I added or change my edit to respond to the objections the other party has raised.
      3. Make a note on the talk page to say why I've changed what I've changed.
    2. If they haven't responded then try to see what might need modifying, and change accordingly. If you can't see what needs changing, then you might be justified in reverting back. This is a last resort. When this happens, I also leave another note on the talk page explaining why I've reverted back again, but I also leave a message on their talk page inviting them to explain why they've reverted.
  2. If conflict in editing is ongoing, then go back to step one until the third revert happens. In that case, go to step 3.
  3. File an request for comment on the page. If noone responds, request a mediation. If this doesn't work, then post a request for help from an advocate.
  4. If that still doesn't work, then file an arbcom dispute.

Why am I telling you all this? Well, it's not because I think you are a user who needs to be told about this, it's because I can see the Pename/anon could cause you lots of grief. If the right procedures are followed, hopefully consensus could be reached, and you cover your butt!

Good luck! - Ta bu shi da yu 12:41, 1 Dec 2004 (UTC)

rv for Islam[edit]

You reverted. I kinda liked [1].iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 02:08, Dec 2, 2004 (UTC)

According to Pename, he checked the Oxford English Dictionary from Oxford University Press and it says that Islamism is as follows:

Islamism / 'zlmz()m/, / 's-/ → n. Islamic militancy or fundamentalism. - DERIVATIVES Islamist ( also Islamicist ) n. & adj.

SOURCE: "Islamism n." The Concise Oxford English Dictionary. Ed. Catherine Soanes and Angus Stevenson. Oxford University Press, 2004. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. University of Toronto Libraries. 2 December 2004 <>;

He also found the following:

Islamism Ideology calling for sociopolitical solidarity among all Muslims. Has existed as a religious concept since the early days of Islam. Emerged as a modern political ideology in the 1860s and 1870s at the height of European colonialism, when Turkish intellectuals began discussing and writing about it as a way to save the Ottoman Empire from fragmentation. Became the favored state policy during the reign of Sultan Abdulhamid II (r. 1876–1909) and was adopted and promoted by members of the ruling bureaucratic and intellectual elites of the empire. With the rise of colonialism, became a defensive ideology, directed against European political, military, economic, and missionary penetration. Posed the sultan as a universal caliph to whom Muslims everywhere owed allegiance and obedience. Sought to offset military and economic weakness in the Muslim world by favoring central government over the periphery and Muslims over non-Muslims in education, office, and economic opportunities. Ultimately failed and collapsed after the defeat and dismemberment of the Ottoman Empire after World War I. Resurrected during the resurgence of Islam after World War II. Expressed via organizations such as the Muslim World League and the Organization of the Islamic Conference, which seek to coordinate Islamic solidarity through political and economic cooperation internationally. Has also served as an important political tool in recruiting all-Muslim support against foreign aggressions.

SOURCE: "Islamism" Oxford Dictionary of Islam. John L. Esposito, ed. Oxford University Press Inc. 2003. Oxford Reference Online. Oxford University Press. University of Toronto Libraries. 2 December 2004 <>;

I'm confused. Our Islamism article says something totally different. The Oxford reference is relatively authoritative. Help! - Ta bu shi da yu 05:36, 2 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Congratulations, Mustafaa![edit]

Congratulations! It's my pleasure to let you know that, consensus being reached, you are now an administrator. You should read the relevant policies and other pages linked to from the administrators' reading list before carrying out tasks like deletion, protection, banning users, and editing protected pages such as the Main Page. Most of what you do is easily reversible by other sysops, apart from page history merges and image deletion, so please be especially careful with those. You might find the new administrators' how-to guide helpful. Cheers! -- Cecropia | explains it all ® 01:33, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Congratulations Mustafaa! Jayjg 01:44, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Double for me. Congratulations! A worthy nomination, I'm very please to see you've become an admin :-) Ta bu shi da yu 01:59, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)
CongratulationsiFaqeer (Talk to me!) 02:09, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)
Hip Hip Hurray!--Josiah 03:20, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Success! You fooled them all! Now it's time to impose your POV on everyone! MWOO-HA-HA-HA! Quadell (talk) (help)[[]] 03:56, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

(just kidding)

Yay! --MPerel 08:51, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Congratulations! mark 11:08, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Congratulations from me too, I warmly second all of the above! And while I'm at it, thank you for supporting my bid for adminship as well. --Woggly 20:52, 3 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I suppose my congratulations would have been welcomed too. I just never doubted Mustafaa's abilities, so I had thought it wouldn't be necessary. Then I remembered that Mustafaa isn't psychic, so... Congrats. :D - Gilgamesh 11:14, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks everybody! :D - Mustafaa 13:42, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Now that you are an admin...:D

There's a revert/edit war going on at Islamist terrorism. An anonymous, unregistered user is reverting to add some text that most editors don't agree should be there.iFaqeer (Talk to me!) 03:52, Dec 3, 2004 (UTC)

Islamist terrorism[edit]

I appreciate you fixing the selective quotations in the article. You didn't even revert, you just fixed them! great work :-) Ta bu shi da yu 02:06, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

ground words[edit]

This is a random selection, not justified by any argument. If you want the reader to compare real words from a widely used wordlist, you can always copy the Swadesh list section of the Finno-Ugric article. - Mustafaa 01:32, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

These are absolutely not random words, but are from a language book, simple ground words, family, parts of the body, their environment. You may present ground words also, and we can add them to the collection. Antifinnugor 08:54, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thank you in advance for stopping your censorism and terror by deletions. Antifinnugor 09:26, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Replacing ín with ér in list of cognates[edit]

Why do you keep replacing ín with ér in the list of cognates at Finno-Ugric languages? Although ín doesn't mean vein, as you've pointed out, it's still cognate to the other words on that line, whereas ér is not. Do you understand what cognate means? --Dbenbenn 20:59, 4 Dec 2004 (UTC)

I assume this comment was directed towards AFU... - Mustafaa 12:45, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Hi Mustafaa, as the page history shows, I didn't put that comment here. --Dbenbenn 18:30, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Ah. I should have known. - Mustafaa 18:48, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Probably you have heard the anecdotes showing that translating a text twice or more time can change the meaning of the whole.
What happens here? The english word vein means ér in Hungarian. There is also a word véna for that. This is the tube, where blood flows. ín means sinew/tendon, that is the intermuscular connecting organ. Wikipedia is going to be erroneous with wrong words, don't you think?
The other cheat word is father, it is clearly apa in Hungarian, ős means ancestor, which could be also listed, but as a different word. The level of the word list is goung more and more lower, if we put in wrong or incorrect words on the wrong or incorrect place. What do you think? Antifinnugor 09:39, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Just a remark: Two languages are not similar or relatives of each other, if "table" in one means "horse", and in another "house", are they? Antifinnugor 09:42, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Mustafa, you did a good work when collecting those similar words. Honestly. It would be a pity to destroy it by using incorrect words here and there. (ér != ín, ős != apa). This does not make any sense, just creates confusion.

For your information some texts in those languages. Sound similar (except Finish-Estonian, that does):

Finnish: Kaikki ihmiset syntyvät vapaina ja tasavertaisina arvoltaan ja oikeuksiltaan. Heille on annettu järki ja omatunto, ja heidän on toimittava toisiaan kohtaan veljeyden hengessä.

Estonian: Kõik inimesed sünnivad vabadena ja võrdsetena oma väärikuselt ja õigustelt. Neile on antud mõistus ja südametunnistus ja nende suhtumist üksteisesse peab kandma vendluse vaim.

Lappish: Buot olbmot leat riegádan friddjan ja olmmošárvvu ja olmmošvuoigatvuoðaid dáfus dássásažžab, Sudhuude kea addib huervnu ha ianedivdym ha vyigjat gakget neabbydut gyunnuudeaset gyivdy vuekhakaš vuoinnain.

Hungarian: Minden. emberi lény szabadon születik és egyenlõ méltósága és joga van. Az emberek, észszel és lelkiismerettel bírván, egymással szemben testvéri szellemben kell hogy viseltessenek.

English: All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.

Antifinnugor 09:39, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

The "incorrect words" are cognates, as the text clearly explains, despite the Hungarian meaning having changed; similarly, if one were making a cognate list for English and German, one would list "timber" as cognate to "Zimmer", even though their meanings have diverged. The idea of having a text comparison section is interesting, although this particular text unfortunately uses many rather technical terms which are unlikely to be of common origin in any event. - Mustafaa 12:50, 6 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Both the finnougric and the uralic page contain wrong word tables.

 English   Finnish    Hungarian
  vein       suoni     ér
  tendon     jennä     ín
  father     isä       apa
  ancestor   esi-isä   õs

This is how it looks correctly. If the words in the table do not match the English ones, people are badly informed, and this is therefore a bad table. Also the English words after the Hungarian ones suggest, these are Hungarian words, which is absolutely confusing. If a vikipedia editor believes, that suoni and ín are somehow relatid, should try to prove that. Father and õs's relation is somewhat more believable by looking at the words, this can be also mentioned. Thank for fixing that. Antifinnugor 20:11, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Aloha, Mustafaa. I'm in the process of disambiguating the word aina. I was wondering what would be the most accurate of way of describing the language in a particular instance. I would describe it as Farsi, but some people describe it as Persian, Parsi, Tajiki or Dari. Can you recommend a good description for this word (meaning "mirror") that will appear on the disambiguation page? There's no hurry on this, so when you have the time, feel free to respond. Thanks in advance for any help you can offer. --Viriditas 06:47, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. Do you think you could add the Arabic script to the entry? --Viriditas 01:50, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)
Great, thanks again. --Viriditas 11:00, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)


I've just realised something about the definition from Esporito that Pename gave. Tell me if this sounds right:

Pename, let's see what you quoted: "Islamism Ideology calling for sociopolitical solidarity among all Muslims. Has existed as a religious concept since the early days of Islam. Emerged as a modern political ideology in the 1860s and 1870s at the height of European colonialism, when Turkish intellectuals began discussing and writing about it as a way to save the Ottoman Empire from fragmentation." OK, let's look at this a bit more carefully. Firstly, the concept is "sociopolitical solidarity among all Muslims". Next sentence is "Has existed as a religious concept since the days of Islam." OK. Now, does that mean that "sociopolitical solidarity" has existed as a religious concept since the days of Muslims? it would seem so. After all, as I've stated below Islamism comes from the French word islamisme, which was itself coined by Voltaire, who existed in the 18th century. The context of what is written would also bear this out because the next sentence is "Emerged as a modern political ideology in the 1860s and 1870s at the height of European colonialism, when Turkish intellectuals began discussing and writing about it as a way to save the Ottoman Empire from fragmentation." So it emerged as a modern political ideology in the 1860s and 1870s? Well, look at that. It appears that you've misread your own source. How delightful.

This is what I just replied to Pename. What do you think? - Ta bu shi da yu 12:33, 5 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Arab culture[edit]

I noticed a red link to Arabic culture on the Arabic page and I was surprised to find that no general article exists. What do you think of creating an Arab culture article? Perhaps it would resemble something like this? --Viriditas 02:21, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

J'raxis, I know you mean well, but please do not change comments made by users other than yourself. I specifically noted a red link to Arabic culture on the Arabic page, and I am, in fact, the person who added Arab culture to Wikipedia:Requested articles/Culture and fine arts. Thank you for your understanding. --Viriditas | Talk 03:58, 12 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Interesting article! (although I think it is rather hopeless to speculate about the historicity of the character, much less do I see any polemic material in it...). Anyway, I inserted my suggestion for the translation of the German bits. regards, [[User:Dbachmann|dab (T) ]] 10:33, 7 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! I agree insofar as there is really no data that would lead anyone not already believing the Qur'anic account to look for a historical Haman; but for those who do believe it, and those who argue against it, the data provided might hopefully be useful in establishing what exactly they are arguing over. - Mustafaa 10:34, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Thanks for the info about Rosetta Project. Ms. Greenberg 12:53, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Request for your NPOV assistance[edit]

Very nice job on the Sabra and Shatila Massacre article! You're a godsend. Could I twist your arm to convince you to come over and help NPOV the Yasser Arafat article? It could use your magic touch... --MPerel

Whatever you choose to do, I completely understand. The problem with being a quality editor like you are is that it puts you in high demand and potentially can drag you away from investing your energy into articles that are of particular interest to you. --MPerel 22:34, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

1997 book you recommended[edit]

Hi Mustafaa, thanks for the reference. I've bookmarked the page.

I've got a great book to recommend to YOU. It's Narratives of Islamic Origins: The Beginnings of Islamic Historical Writing by Fred M. Donner, Darwin Press, 1998. I ordered it through Amazon, for something like $35. It's the first book I've read that demolishes Wansbrough rather than just ignoring him. Donner uses internal evidence from the Qur'an to argue for an early date of collection. Finally a clue out of the confusion. Also, a picture of the early Muslims that rings true for me. Zora 21:20, 9 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Unverified images[edit]

Hi! Thanks for uploading the following images:

I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use {{gfdl}} if you release it under the GNU Free Documentation License, {{fairuse}} if you claim fair use, etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just let me know where you got the imagesand I'll tag them for you. Thanks so much. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk, automation script)]] 23:28, Dec 9, 2004 (UTC)

P.S. You can help tag other images at User:Yann/Untagged_Images. Thanks again.

Unverified images[edit]

Hi! Thanks for uploading the following images:

I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use {{gfdl}} if you release it under the GNU Free Documentation License, {{fairuse}} if you claim fair use, etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just let me know where you got the imagesand I'll tag them for you. Thanks so much. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk, automation script)]] 01:23, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

P.S. You can help tag other images at User:Yann/Untagged_Images. Thanks again.

Unverified images[edit]

Hi! Thanks for uploading the following images:

I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use {{gfdl}} if you release it under the GNU Free Documentation License, {{fairuse}} if you claim fair use, etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just let me know at my talk page where you got the images and I'll tag them for you. Thanks so much. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk, automation script)]] 04:48, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

P.S. You can help tag other images at User:Yann/Untagged_Images. Thanks again.

Unverified images[edit]

Hi! Thanks for uploading the following images:

I notice it currently doesn't have an image copyright tag. Could you add one to let us know its copyright status? (You can use {{gfdl}} if you release it under the GNU Free Documentation License, {{fairuse}} if you claim fair use, etc.) If you don't know what any of this means, just let me know at my talk page where you got the images and I'll tag them for you. Thanks so much. [[User:Poccil|Peter O. (Talk, automation script)]] 21:20, Dec 10, 2004 (UTC)

P.S. You can help tag other images at User:Yann/Untagged_Images. Thanks again.


Done. Thanks. Hyacinth 01:39, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Anonymous message from anonymous person.[edit]

I was just browsing around your profile and article edits and would like to say that it's really refreshing that there is someone out there who advocates co-existence between everyone no matter what their religion, race, ethnicity, or opinion especially in a place like Israel and Palestine where opinion is almost always pro or anti, left or right and usually extremist. 02:03, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Thank you, anonymous person! Hope you stick around Wikipedia; it's always nice to have politically calm people around. - Mustafaa 15:10, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Could I get you to sign it under "Users certifying the basis for this dispute"? Otherwise its about to be deleted. Sorry for confusion. - Ta bu shi da yu 07:29, 11 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Nafaanra & Senufo[edit]

My internet connection was broken for two weeks, so I had the chance to recover from my starting Wikiholism. It didn't work out, as you see :D. You might like my recent work on Senufo languages and Nafaanra language. (Nafaanra is a relatively unknown language spoken in the area of Dompo and Mpre.) Incidentally, you might want to check for possible EAL-related problems. If you find any, I would be pleased if you could tell me how to improve my writing. mark 11:02, 14 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Please could you take a look at my work on the Mandaic alphabet and Nabataean alphabet. I've put the Mandaic one in an article, but I'm unsure whether it should be categorized as alphabetic, abugada or abjad. I feel that as (most?) vowels are written with seperate letters it is alphabetic, but the table makes it look like an abugada. I've just produced the Nabataean alphabet table, but my computer mangled the IPA, so it doesn't look right. I know that the Nabataean alphabet varied a lot over time and place, but I could only find this version. Do you think it's good to show 'square' script and Arabic with it? It looks a little 'in between'. I'd appreciate any comment, thanks. Gareth Hughes 17:47, 13 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Arabic varieties[edit]

Hi Mustafaa,

If you have original research, while it may not be fit to put in the article it would certainly satisfy a personal curiousity, and if you put it online (not on Wikipedia), you could have an external link from the article.

Also, I have a couple of questions: Do you know of any reference works in English or French with a good description of Cypriot Mennonite Arabic? What about Central Asian Arabics and Sub-Saharan Arabics and Arabic pidgins/creoles?

I'm afraid my Arabic abilities stop a bit short of reading technical articles.

--Node 00:49, 15 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Hello again.

Thanks for all the links!

Actually, I had already been wondering about cognation percentages; the debate brought this under the spotlight, but by the time I asked you it appeared to be pretty much over already so I didn't think it warranted mentioning.

I don't know a lot about Algerian Arabic, but apparently when Algeria was under French control, there was some degree of literacy in Algerian Arabic in the Roman alphabet? Not sure about that.

--Node 01:08, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

How would you feel about supporting a "Maghrebi Arabic Wikipedia"? ie, not limited to Algerian Arabic. --Node 22:47, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

مجمع اللغة العربية [communion?][edit]

Mustafa, regarding Communion of Arabic Language in Varieties of Arabic, the name is مجمع اللغة العربية. I'm aware communion has more of a Church usage, but it's the best I could found in the thesaurus. Please change it to a better name if you find any. On the other hand, I don't know much about AbdElAziz Fahmy yet, but there's a book about this proposition of his which should shed more light on him.

That paragraph in Nubi about it being different from Nubian languages looks better now, thank you. I should have a done a better job in phrasing it, but I'm suffering from a sever case of info-overload at the moment :-) besides being overwhelmed in Aarabic Wikipedia. By the way, wy don't you contribute to it? It's a mess there. Also in Nubian I haven't found a mention of Fdjeka Nubian language spoken by the people who use this name to identify themselves. Is it a misnomer?! --Alif 17:57, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)

You're right. They use this specific name. I don't know why I'm so lame today! Although Consortium would have been suitable too.

Tajik Wikipedia[edit]

Hi Mustafaa,

I believe the appropriate person to contact about that would be User:Brion.

Also, if you know any Tajik at all, you can request sysophood and translate the interface yourself (or at least what parts of it you can).

--Node 21:13, 16 Dec 2004 (UTC)


Hi, Mustafaa. First of all, congratulations on all your work for the Wikipedia. It is truly impressive. Thanks for including me among your fellow linguists listed on your User Page. I would also like to mention that I see eye-to-eye with you on all the points on which you have expressed an opinion, that I have come across. And now to the point: I don't know if you ever visit the List of European cities with alternative names, but there has been a controversy on its talk page for the past ten days or so, and I was wondering if you would care to review it and possibly intervene. Thank you. Pasquale 18:06, 17 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Love your work[edit]

Hi! I just wanted to say I love your Wikipedia work on articles of various African languages! So informative and interesting! Peace.--Sonjaaa 21:56, Dec 17, 2004 (UTC)

Thanks! It's good to know it's not just me and Mark Dingemanse reading them ;) Always nice to hear from other Wikilinguists! - Mustafaa 00:41, 18 Dec 2004 (UTC)

Copyvio question[edit]

Thanks for jumping on this so fast... I'm working with the kids right now, so I don't have time to sort it out. I'm not certain, but my quick read seems to show the same text in several places in the article, and also that has some of the same text as the article.

On a quick scan of the 'nocturne' article I note that at least at one point, they cite wikipedia as a source, this may be all it was that I found, and in that case it seems strange that we are linking to an external source that got their info from us. Strange but not necessarly wrong. I'll look at this later when I have free time, but if you would like, I think that just reading through the article and making any fixes you think are appropriate would do it. (As I recall, the same text shows up in two separate sections) If you feel it's cleaned up, I wouldn't at all mind if you remove the 'cleanup' tag. I'll take a look at it later in any case.

Thanks again. If there's any other questions feel free to leave me a note... I'm logged on, but may not be able to reply until later, since I'm working with a homeschool group, and they are using all the computers.Pedant 20:01, 2004 Dec 19 (UTC)

All right, I'm not sure what the problem was (or maybe what I imagined I saw) but I read the article again... it looks fine now. Thanks for your time. Pedant 04:39, 2004 Dec 22 (UTC)


Mustafaa, I've been having a debate with others over whether a specific article or a disambiguation page should occupy the Bikini article space. I argue for a disambiguation page because of the serious and sensitive political nature of Bikini Atoll. Can you go to Talk:Bikini#Disambiguation page and give it a look? I must admit that it doesn't look good on a résumé to show naked pejorative sentiment in Wikipedia talk pages... - Gilgamesh 18:01, 20 Dec 2004 (UTC)